[aida] Web framework or Web Application Server?

Giuseppe Luigi Punzi glpunzi at lordzealon.com
Mon Aug 18 18:20:46 CEST 2008


Good point..

And what about, Web Application Suite?

Jimmie Houchin escribió:
> Janko Mivšek wrote:
>   
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Well, time to decide what to use for Aida. Should it be Web framework or 
>> Web application server? And we need to decide quickly, logo is on the 
>> work, Wikipedia entry also...
>>     
>
> Regardless of the decision. I believe that whatever we decide should be 
> well defined on the website as there are many differing views on the 
> definitions of these phrases.
>
> Personally, I like Web Application Server.
>
>   
>> Nico's stance:
>> I think that we should be clear about that : Aida is a web framework,
>> Swazoo is a web server. Aida is clearly not a web server, and I think
>> that the sentence "Smalltalk web application server" is very confusing
>> for newcommers (It was the case for me when I discovered Aida...) : What
>> is Aida and what is Swazoo?
>>     
>
> I can understand Nico's position here. This is why I believe that on any 
> material which describes AIDAweb it should be defined as to the meaning 
> of the term.
>
> There is much differing and ambiguity in the world of web development.
>
> For example what does "Full Stack" mean? Rails and others use such an 
> expression to describe their framework. But the combination of 
> deployable options in such "Full Stack" frameworks is dizzying. Web 
> server..., Database..., Templating language..., etc.  So much for "Full 
> Stack" and having quality decisions already made. :)
>
> Nevertheless, I believe a good definition attached to Web Application 
> Server may take care of Nico's situation and where he and others come from.
>
>   
>> My stance:
>> Swazoo is web server while Aida is web framework. But
>> because Aida comes always with Swazoo, I think we shall name Aida as Web
>> application server, which is web framework + web server.
>>     
>
> Point. Can AIDA serve a web app or Smalltalk objects without Swazoo?
> To my understanding no.
> So while AIDA is not a web server. It does require a single specific web 
> server as a part of its framework architecture. It isn't optional. We 
> can't swap Apache, nginx, lighttpd, or any other web server for Swazoo. 
> We can put any of them in front of AIDAweb/Swazoo but we can't replace 
> Swazoo with any of them.
>
> To me this is a big distinguishing difference between AIDAweb and RoR or 
> any other "Full Stack" framework.
>
> I am not certain how RoR works and whether or not if you use Apache you 
> still have to use its internal web server or not.
>
>   
>> But on the other side, RoR and Seaside are declared only as web
>> frameworks and as we like to be on pair, we also use only "Web
>> framework" for Aida when appropriate.
>>     
>
> Seaside can claim to be a framework if they wish. But it is just as 
> dependent on Komanche's as AIDA is on Swazoo.
>
> AIDAweb and Seaside are much more like Zope than Ruby on Rails or other 
> such frameworks.
>
>  From the Zope site at:  http://www.zope.org
> Zope is an open source application server ...
>
> From:  http://www.zope.org/WhatIsZope
> What is Zope?
> Zope is an open source web application server ...
>
> More detailed descriptions available at the above pages.
>
> You can put Apache, etc. in front of Zope, but you don't have to.
> You can use an external database, but you don't have to.
>
> Read the above 2 pages on Zope and see what you would like to use for 
> descriptions or marketing.
>
> But of course nothing, absolutely nothing is as well integrated, tightly 
> coupled, out of the box available as AIDAweb or Seaside. :)
>
> Zope is a close as I think we get to a Smalltalk like system, out in the 
> file based world programming languages. And as such its advocates and 
> opponents have the same likes and dislikes as are used for and against 
> Smalltalk.
>
>   
>> Also if you see title of our website on Google, you'll see a long
>> "AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Framework and Application Server". That's
>> because people search sometimes as web framework, sometimes as web
>> application, sometimes as web application server etc.
>>     
>
> In the end, to me, AIDAweb is for building and serving web applications. 
> Yes, it does contain a framework, but it is far more tightly coupled to 
> its components and parts than most.
>
> Is a framework?
> Has a framework?
>
> Is an application server?
> Has an application server?
>
> Nothing will be perfect.
>
> But I vote for Web Application Server and a quality definition as to 
> what that means for AIDAweb.
>
> Don't know if this helps. But hope so.
>
> Jimmie
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>   



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